Wednesday, April 08, 2009

In or Out of Wedlock?

When I read the phrase, ‘Out of Wedlock’, I begin to think: Does ‘In Wedlock’ mean that the scenario is different? Technically, I guess there is a difference considering one’s marital status is affected…but realistically, what does In/Out Wedlock imply when kids are involved?

When I think of both (married/unmarried), based on my baby daddy experience and my knowledge of the in’s and out’s of countless failed marriages, I really do not comprehend a difference. If momma and daddy are together, but hate each other there is no difference. If momma and daddy are ‘living in sin’ and estranged there is no difference. With the overwhelming divorce rate (over 50%) and pathetic marriages that should have ended years ago (too many to count) I ask, what is the point of ‘locking’ the involvement up in holy matrimony if a pregnancy sneaks up on ya? What does the marriage guarantee when thinking of the children?

Should more black folk get married considering the following statistic:

70% of BLACK children are raised by single black women

Which is better?

*Go ahead and get hitched knowing you are not ready to be married to the man/woman you made the
baby with.

Or

*Accept the baby momma/baby daddy role and be the best parent you can be outside of the home.

40% babies out-of-wedlock

“For a variety of reasons, it's become more acceptable for women to have babies without a husband”, said Duke University's S. Philip Morgan…”

Nearly half British babies out of wedlock - UPI.com

“The percentage of British babies are now born out of wedlock continues to approach 1-in-2…”

If the Out of Wedlock scenario is becoming “acceptable”, why does it still have a negative connotation when speaking of black people, particularly poor black people? I press here because this wealthy couple has not received much flack for their out of wedlock baby making ways:

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/6342/diddy2400561bc87lk3.jpg

But, this brother has (perhaps he should even with his has-been status – Wow!):

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=3979857&categoryid=3286128

Shared by Brian E. Payne.

37 comments:

Monik--Neighbor said...

Well, parents should not marry "just" for the child. Yes, it was done this way in the past...when our grandparents, parents did it...but doesn't really hold to true standards these days. It only hurts a child to be in a two-parent home just because daddy and mommy conceived them. An overwhelming amount of love can be given to the child outside of wedlock, just as much as inside wedlock. We should only marry if we are willing to be committed to each other...mommy and daddy...as well as the child. Only being committed to the child is not enough to say "I DO".

Now as far as "out of wedlock" for African-Americans...and the negative stigma... well, since "Massa" didn't allow or want us to become educated back in slavery days...what was one to do in their spare time... make babies possibly. So to Massa...this could have been seen as "ignorant"...or maybe just plain dumb...yet smart in the same token...especially since he would use the off-spring as his property to experience the same blood, sweat, and tears as the off-spring's parents. Now-a-days... people such as Brad and Angelina, Britany Spears' sister, Sarah Palin's daughter...and a plethora of others are also doing the "out of wedlock" thing. So are they viewed as ignorant as blacks were or still may be today? Hell NO! But as always, they end up doing just as we do...but for their own glorification... (fuller lips, hips, deep tans, big asses, etc.) and the shit becomes right just because it's WHITE. I beg to differ!

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

Most ancient societies needed a secure environment for the perpetuation of the species,a system of rules to handle the granting of property rights, and the protection of bloodlines. The institution of marriage handled these needs. For instance, ancient Hebrew law required a man to become the husband of a deceased brother's widow, etc. etc.( http://marriage.about.com/cs/generalhistory/a/marriagehistory.htm}

In the ancient world, children were absolutely essential. The men needed to make certain, the children were their's. DNA testing would be thousands of years away. Women needed men to survive. Marriage was necessary.

None of the above reasons are issues today. No one needs to get married unless they really want to. Children still need an actively involved and supportive mother and a father. Each gender plays a unique role in the lives of both sons and daughters, If one parent is missing, the attending parent cannot make up the difference no matter how sincere the efforts.

Thus, having children today should not be by accident. Parents should jointly decided if they are ready to make the full commitment necessary for raising children until they are grown. They need to decided if they want to be legally married or simply live together. If neither, with whom will the child/children live. What will be the role of the parent living outside of the home.

The above are the issues that need to be addressed today. The term "out of wedlock" has no meaning in the 21st century, at least it shouldn't.

-A Reverend

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader response:

Ask Sarah Palin's daughter and her ex "fiance" Levi.

No, I don't believe in Marriage just because you are pregnant...if you really know that it is not right for you. I think that people are so busy trying to fit in to society's box of how things should be that they do not think what is right for themselves.

I know plenty of folks who are just as happy living in sin...or happier than married couples and vice versa. Getting married does not validate the child....The child is its own entity and validates itself.

-CG

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

Ok I must say something else...NO WOMAN CAN TRAP A MAN INTO A CHILD...THERE IS NO SUCH THING. YOU ALWAYS ASSUME THAT THE WOMAN IS NOT ON BIRTH CONTROL BEFORE YOU STICK YOUR D@#K IN THERE...AND WEAR A CONDOM AND YOU WONT HAVE THESE TYPES OF PROBLEMS. IT MAKES ME SICK WHEN A MAN SAYS I WAS TRAPPED....NO SUCH THING. SUCK UP TO THE RESPONSIBLITY.

I will get off my soap box now....:)

Now for that black althlete Howard....he is an a@@hole. Ghetto as hell and no class. Fathering all those children and not even having the full brunt of the responsibility. Oh, he is a real dad by seeing them once a yr. Keep your d@#k in you pants man. That goes for if you are white, black or whatever.

-CG

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader response:

Like it has been said b4, in love or not; some folks need to stop. Just because she fell for the come on, she's at fault solely.

-LGL

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

CG responds to LGL:

What....what do you mean she is at fault soley. He stuck his d@#k in her too. That is offensive.

-CG

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

BOTH PARTIES are to blame and there are too many instances where fathers are not stepping up to the plate. I was talking to a friend last week who loves to watch the Maury show. This show irks me to no end. I can't understand what is entertaining about hearing Maury say for the 10th time, " You are NOT the father of that child!" and seeing a man jump up and down, the mother in tears.

What in the world is wrong with all of us. Where is our sense of community?

I am not here to say people are right or wrong.
The epidemics that we are facing as a community of Black people in the US is apparently connected to our poor choices. Sadly, we cannot isolate the bad choice of a father of ten children that he will never be able to fully raise responsibly or etc.

The condom argument between a man and a woman is moot when there is a doggone child conceived. It is pointless to fuss over milk that is spilled and on the floor. The man is a dead beat and the woman will be beat to near death with hardship trying to raise it on her own.

It is unacceptable to me period.

-O

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader CG responds:

Back to the football player named Howard.....if the women he laid with knew about all the other 9 kids he had and expected that they would be different, that is also their stupidity.

-CG

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader response:

Is it me or the football player with 9 (or 11) kids is at least trying to do the right thing? He made a mistake, or 10, but he tries to take the kids when he can, thought it will never probably be enough. I kinda feel for him.

I think Brian's point is sound, if you play and lay, then you pay. Both men and women are equally responsible for their actions.

I think the man takes the hit on this one mostly, because he probably isn't there 24-7 and if that is the case, then who is doing most of the work...Momma! Which kinda vindicates her stupidity for laying with a dead beat, because then you will be drumming alone!

On the issue of married or unmarried, does it matter if the child is taken care of? That is a personal choice. Hence, some of us married, to have it fail, then bam you doing the same dance anyway.

Who cares! Live and be happy!

-S

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Muata responds:

Some men believe that the difficulties of trying to deal with scorn/hurt because it did not work women is too much to handle. Some believe that leaving is the best choice over punching the female in the face. We must face it, some women are over the top and extremely difficult to deal with on a day to day basis. As a result men flee. I am not condoning it - but what choice does he have when he feels like smacking the crap out of the constantly nagging woman? I just believe that women are playing a more significant part in this drama that plagues our community - but the flack is not directed to them because the female is the one who ends up with the baby full-time when all hell breaks loose. Countless black men are trying or tried to be good fathers - but the bitterness blockade is up!


-Muata

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Responds:

"but what choice does he have when he feels like smacking the crap out of the constantly nagging woman?"- Brian..

I wonder if men feel like smacking the crap out of their mothers, grandmothers, aunts and sisters when they nag..

if so,... then I think the bigger problem in that scenario is his latent abuse issues...

if not, then I think the bigger problem in that scenario is his latent abuse issues...

-SK

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Muata responds to SK:

Like I said I do not condone the behavior - but it is a reality.

That feeling is there when a man tries his best to the right thing - but is constantly bombarded with drama. I have worked with numerous good/dynamic black men who just could not take the barrage of insults and disrespect of his manhood. Now, they caught up in the white man's judicial system.

Two things needed to occur for these men:

He should have learned somewhere in his past to control his anger and the female should not have provoked the men with the type of disrespect I noted above.

It is complex. However, we have to do better for the sake of our kids.

-Muata

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader SK responds to Muata:

I'm just saying the reality is unconscionable.. and both terms, "good"(black man) and "nagging" (woman) are neither right or wrong.. but subjective.. and whether one is more accurate than the other.. imagining violence in response to frustration is a dangerous cop out ......

-SK

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader response:

I agree that pregnancy shouldn't force two people to become husband and wife, but a true commitment to raising a child should always come first! I've always seen bitterness and quick trigger judgements when dating single mothers if there's a poor or non existent relationship with their child's father. Honestly, it's so hard to open up and love someone who has so much bitterness and ill will about past situations!

Placing blame isn't the answer, but living up to one's responsibilities is a great start.

-WB

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader response:

Let me just say that if anyone has unprotected sex, they are jointly responsible for the outcome. PERIOD. This is why sex (which scientifically is supposed to encourage the healthy reproduction of mankind) should be between to committed adults within the confines of marriage (a binding covenant between each other, God and witnesses) It takes 2 to make a baby, should take 2 to raise a baby.

About the athlete: You can't just disqualify/negate your responsibility UPFRONT. What if the woman said, "Look if this is how its gonna be (and normally the guy wants it that way), if I get pregnant then you are dealing with this baby - I'm out." But she is crazy too -- That's just like telling a bank " Look, yes I want this loan, I'm beggin' for this loan - but if you give it to me I'm telling you now I'm not gonna pay up." What! Who would go into this arrangement?? But they do -- and many children's lives are suffering for it.

So both people are responsible.

-SBZ

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Muata responds to SBZ:

I will do my best not to make this about religion or belief. However, being married with God 'sealing' the union does not matter. I know COUNTLESS men and women who call themselves married but are in the same situation as the overwhelming prevalence of baby daddy and baby momma garbage. It is obvious that the covenant that God supposedly sanction is not working: 50% of marriages end in divorce. Some within 1-2 years. So, God's union has been ineffective for many. What is effective is a commitment to a commitment. Marriage is not a prerequisite for that.

-Muata

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader CG responds to Muata:

It is obvious that the covenant that God supposedly sanction is not working: 50% of marriages end in divorce. Some within 1-2 years. So, God's union has been ineffective for many. What is effective is a commitment to a commitment. Marriage is not a prerequisite for that.

Now we are on the same page...commitment to the commitment. I know many a "Christian" person ready to go to divorce court for the tinest of things and they are supposed to be so HOLY. I think that God realizes that you can't just USE his name on something that is ill from the start.

-CG

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader response:

I was gonna stay out of this....but, now feel compelled to make a few observations.

I have a real problem with people holding marriage out to be this great salve for male/female relations. Particularly when females are held in a low regard for having children outside of the confines of marriage. Marriage is a social construct and does not enhance any relationship. In fact, for some relationships, marriage sounds the death knell. Further, what did people do before there were marriage certificates and such?

Second, what is with the misogyny on this board and in this thread? Or maybe I am being overly sensitive. But, what is up with all the "nagging woman" coments. Brian, you know I love you like cooked food, but can we have a discussion where women do not bear the brunt of antagonism? I have yet to read (in this thread) any one of the females call the male trifling or speak in other disparaging terms.

Now, to answer your original question.....Marriage is a guarantee of nothing.....absolutely nothing. Life offers no guarantees except death. If one parent leaves, there is nothing that can make a parent 'do right'....regardless of what the divorce decree or the child support order stipulates. And to make another point, with the state of African American economical affairs, the woman often comes out with the crappy end of the stick in a divorce. If she makes more money, alimony and child support go out of the widow....

-K

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader response:

...y'all are killing me!!!...it's not that complex...if you fugging, you could possibly reproduce...damn condoms, B.C.P.'s, diaphrams; that shit ain't 100%...as for being married, that's some bullshit too...bottom line is YOU are responsible for the shit YOU do...you can try to place blame wherever the hell you want, you can be mad or whatever...doesn't matter...and why is there stigma attached to the child?...the poor little bastard didn't ask to be a bastard...but i hope you all realize that these LABELS are just another means of defining people to the satisfaction of the labellers...another means of tearing down self-esteem...and if i offended any of you bastards out there...

-HM

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader SK responds:

Marriage serves a homogeneous community... the institution of marriage is the foundational keeper and procreative protector of communal values, principles and worldview... when the community is no longer united.. marriage then becomes an individualistic pleasure for the parties involved... no longer needed is extended family or communal support and therefore there is no longer a need for familial or community approval... relationships are reduced to individualistic remnants of traditional sentiments, lust, loneliness and pressure...

The more diverse and individualistic the community, the more individualistic and diverse the reasons for "marrying" except marrying was never a remnant of committed relationships born out of lust.. it had a higher purpose that was filtered through whatever religious philosophy the community espoused...

-SK

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader CG responds:

I gotta say something. I have a Godmother who was a kid out of wedlock. (WHo cares, if you ask me, GOD KNEW ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WERE GONNA BE BORN ON THIS EARTH SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME..AND NO ONE IS A MISTAKE) Her mom was a hooker and her dad was a druggy....again...SO WHAT..no one picks their parents....

I say all this to say that she was raised by a really religious Aunt, who I am sure reminded her of this to an extent and kept her in the church all the time. AGAIN, GOD LOVES EVERYBODY THE SAME NO MATTER HOW YOU GOT HERE. GOD MEANT FOR US ALL TO BE HERE IN OR OUT OF THIS SO CALLED WEDLOCK....so let's keep it moving.

I think my Godmother was so shaped by this and was so HOLY, that she blindly left NY and moved to Florida with her husband....who left her and their child within a few yrs. This woman actually waited for decades for her husband to come back because she did not believe in divorce...and prayed for her husband to come back....He came back all right damned near dumb crippled and blind when no one else wanted him anymore....and she gladly took him back.

Her daughter is in her mid to late forties and has never been married and very religious ( I guess that means she is a virgin??????) But she goes off on mothers who have it going on and choose to have a child because they cannot find a person who will commit to them. She says it is against God. I mean...if you cannot find a mate at 45, do you just stay celibate for the rest of your life or just settle>\??????? Nothing in the means of a child is against God since God wants us all here.

I am sorry, but I am very passionate about this.

Marriage is a peice of paper that guarantees nothing. Just because one gets married and then divorce a yr later but has the child "in" wedlock, does not make that baby any more better or loved than the out of wedlock one is.

I am tired of the labels....the baby mama isht....STOP IT . They are simply moms like everyone else;commited to children....a piece of paper will not make this any more or less so.

Next, there are people who are married where one or the other party does EVERYTHING. Is that family for the sake of a paper? You may as well be alone if you are a man in this situation or a woman. Because children see this and formulate their ideas based upon what they see....if Dad or mom just sits on the couch and the other spouse does everything.....Marriage heals everything, right???? lol

-CG

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader HM responds:

...gimme five...on tha black hand side...if you gotz true luv, then that's what'cha gotz...paper ain't never made nobody luv nobody...we' ve become such a part of society that we are now allowing OTHERS to define and label us...let's get introspective and start looking for luv inside first...find luv for yourself...maybe then you'll have enough to share...maybe then we won't hate ourselves so much that we continue to inflict pain on our own...take care of our women and babies...ain't no such thing as a bastard anyway...just babies with sorry- assed pappies...and somebody tell me why if yo' daddy ain't shit, why does the child carry the stigma?...

-HM

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Muata responds to HM:

The complexities of slavery continue to haunt us. Not an excuse - but that dreadful and disastrous tool has emotionally, financially, and psychologically defeated us thus the reason we are what/who we are. What you are talking about is a drastic mental shift. Even the BEST of us are not where we need to be along the lines of self love. If that is true, what is our fate as a PEOPLE? We have tried to attain/gain in all ways possible: whitey's way, the African way, what other ways do we have remaining? Perhaps, I can't see the success. Perhaps, I am expecting to much from each and every black person walking in the United States. The world. What is it that we need to see/bring forth for people like me and others to really absorb the changes/progression? It is there. Just taking so many of us TOO LONG to feel it. Believe it. Help me with this.

-Muata

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader SBZ responds:

When the purpose of something is not known, abuse is inevitable. Marriage without love and committment is an oxymoron. Just because people have misused and abused marriage does not negate the strength of its purpose or the benefits derived there of. Like using a cell phone as a weapon (thx Naomi C) doesn't mean its no longer a cell phone. It is misused and abused by people who never understood what it is for in the first place. I think pre-marital counseling should be mandated -- if folks don't want to do it, then they shouldn't get married.

SK -amen for your post. Marriages it not selfish, not for individual or self actualization though these are often by products. As studies have shown, it stabilizes communities, lengthens life expectancies, provides a more nurturing- successful environment for children to thrive.

People go into marriage for selfish reasons and never realize the character development and growth opportunities that successful marriage mandates. If one has the "what have you done for me lately" mindset - then this is not a marriage - its an investment opportunity. As a relative once said on her second marriage - it was not a marriage but a love affair. Many of today's marriages (and subsequent divorces) are based on the flimsy foundation of merit or performance based "love" (if you can call it love). Forget better or worse, richer/poorer, in health/sickness --When performance slips into worse, poorer or sickness then it's time to check out. This is not a marriage but a performance contract.

I am not knocking many single parent households because people survive and thrive and are making it happen @ great sacrifce for their children. But having watched closely family members both single moms/signle dads --it is a hard struggle to be the sole person giving care to one child - even w/ sporadic help from the other parent. It's hard work, and it is not an optimal situation. But people strive hard every day to do what is best for their children. I hate labels and children should not be labeled "in or out of wedlock".

But marriage, when done for the right reasons between to committed adults, is absolutely the best and most fertile ground for children to thrive.

-SBZ

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Muata responds to SBZ:

My mother did it (single parent) with such ease and grace that I NEVER saw it as been "difficult". Perhaps, these women (previous generation) are just cut from a different/tougher clothe? Perhaps, the mothers who describe it (single parenting) as difficult are/were not made like they (previous generation) were. Perhaps, this sad society/culture has ruin 'God's people'?

Momma raised 3 of us hard heads!


-Muata

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

SBZ responds to Muata:

They do not make mothers like they used to -- that is for sure. I have apologized to my husband many times because there is no way to measure up to his mother (who I adore), my mother or your mother for that matter. It was difficult for them too I know, but they made it happen -- I wonder if your Mom had a strong support network - this goes a long way. We can do all things with God's help.

But it is much harder to raise kids now because the community is so disentegrated and there is so much more to be vigilant over. I think about my brother raising his 5 yr old daughter (her mother is in her 3rd tour in Kuwait) and he is struggling. They will probably never get married and they co-parent when she's around but he still does most of the work. He doesn't complain ever and my niece doesn't want for anything. But it is not optimal. My sister in law struggles with 2 teenage sons whose father abandoned them via divorce years ago. She is making it happen but it is very hard. Both of them live hundreds of miles away from us so we can't offer that most pressure gift to single parents and that is community support and network of help. A lot of my friends now are single parents, and the most successful ones have that strong network of support. But many don't have it and it does take its toll.

That's all I'm saying.

-SBZ

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

i would certainly rather have children within the context of a marriage....correction: within a "healthy" marriage - where there isn't a lot of chaos and turmoil. I was raised in a two parent home and I want to be able to give the same thing to my child....My parents had their issues but they stuck it out.

Role modeling good relationship behavior, pooling of resources, family support, societal support, consistency, stablilty, legal security of marriage, health/dentalinsurance (lol), dual source of income (dual incomes)....all of these things are ideal in raising a child. These things aren't as much of a struggle to acheive when you have a two parent household that is functioning well.

Maybe it isn't about having your two bio parents married and raising children together...maybe its more about having parents with the right values and attitude.

Call me an idealist.

I think the issue with the rate of children born out of wedlock comes from the statistics of poverty and low academic performance associated with single parent homes or homes where it is difficult for the parents to provide most or all of the above factors.

-RG

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

You can say what you want but there is something about stating those vows and truly meaning it that is far more reaching (to me) than living together until we can't anymore.

I think in this thread, marriage has been has been reduced to a piece of paper or bad relationships that people don't leave, though I will say not by all. But it has yet to be watered down for me. It is a contract legally binding that is also a commitment made in love, and in front of God that is beyond what has been described here by quite a few.

Yes, some people do stay in bad marriages. Yes, some people do get married for the wrong reasons. Yes, the divorce rate is high.

Even with all of that said, I still don't believe that the marriage vows themselves have been watered down. Rather, people have actually done the watering. What I do know is that the power of those vows still hold weight for me and definitely hold weight in this household and divorce is not an option here. So, I continually work on my marrriage so that it continues to bear good fruit, even enough to make it through the bad times.

OK now I'm rambling but with all things being equal, I love to see children grow up in two parent households with parents that love each other and are married. That's my preference. But if and when they don't, I don't feel that single parents are less than. But if both options are put on the table, I'm choosing option A.

OK, carry on...

-SP

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

I have enjoyed reading the latter comments!

I am glad Kaye got Brian on that nagging momma drama stuff. BECAUSE most of the women I know, would LOVE for their child's father to take a more active role in their child's life and do nothing to hinder that relationship. So, it is definitely not about mom's always standing in the way with bitterness as their shield! BUT, ok, Brian spoke. I digress.

Onto marriage...good points have been raised. I believe in and respect the institution of marriage. I am cautious about questioning motivations for marriage, blaming it on lust, etc. I think people have and always will marry for various reasons. Whatever the reasons are, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. From the holiest to the most sinful amongst us, sometimes it just fails.

BUT, children are the basis of this discussion and whether they need a married home life. I think ideally, a healthy, peaceful environment with two loving parents is optimal for the child's success.

If that can't be done in marriage--great! If cohabitants, great! If going solo, then it is fine to be done alone. Many of us are products of that environment and blended families too and we made out ok.

Also folks, I hate to be the bearer of bad news and all, but sometimes folks with loving, Christian, two parent homes have screwed up children! I can think of two right now whose parents I might even trade my crazy ones in for, each have a child that did good. The right things. AND yet they both have one whose actions are questionable. Sure that they've got that paper with their name on it, but they are making the same sort of errors that we would say are generational curses (out of wedlock children, multiple marriages, etc.) The stuff we think loving married homes, statistically circumvent!

While sometimes I too would like a do-over for my parent's marriage and my marriage, I am always reminded folks: There is no perfect child, childhood, adult, or adulthood. Optimal environments are not always a guarantee that the children are going to better than those who were raised in less than optimal environments.

I do believe most would choose marriage if the moon and stars align, but when they don't...carry on and raise your child(ren) to his/her/their best potential.

-S

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

"No piece of paper will make a person 'do right'."


This is true.. not even giving birth to a child will make a mother do right.. but human beings still hold one another accountable to what we feel are the highest and best ideals ...

The "paper" only holds as much weight as we understand the communal purpose of marriage.. when a society drifts further apart into its own navel gazing, then each union between man and woman will become further compartmentalized rather than communally sanctioned..


The paper is there for the union to be an expression of and beholden to the will of not just the participants but the goals and ideals of society...


So of course in a society that is so diverse and non united.. the worth of the "paper" and even the marriage is called into question...

Our relationships are no longer extensions of realized and strived for high ideals.. we are reactors to urges, pleasures and pains.. our relationships reflect this and we no longer see the purposes of the traditions our ancestors set up to sustain...

to sustain...

sustain...


something?

we just can't figure out what it is any longer...

-SK

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

"Do you GROOM'S NAME take BRIDE'S NAME to be your wife – to live together after God’s ordinance – in the holy estate of matrimony? Will you love her, comfort her, honor and keep her, in sickness and in health, for richer, for poorer, for better, for worse, in sadness and in joy, to cherish and continually bestow upon her your heart’s deepest devotion, forsaking all others, keep yourself only unto her as long as you both shall live?"

*Why do we expect marriage, as it exist today, to work when:

More and more people are becoming increasingly faithless, unspiritual, and non-religious.
More and more people are disgustingly self-centered/selfish as a result of this 'all about me' society.
More and more people cannot even be honest with themselves and/or honor themselves as a result of the inability to do any soul searching because we are living on the 'surface' and not within.
More and more people are plagued by the flesh as a result of a SEX, SEX, SEX driven culture?

And, we expect marriage to work for this 'new' society?? Marriage is becoming something we avoid because it does not reflect the turns we have taken.

-Muata

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader SBZ responds to Muata:

Do we then water down the principle to address the failure of the culture, No. There may be a crisis of faith, but that does not negate the truth. WE must appeal the highest and best parts of us and our people. We are the salt of the earth - we can influence the culture rather than have it influence us or our principles.
We have believed the lies that folks have marketed to us to sell their music, shows and products - its about the money and the power. That life is a fairytail - it does not exist. But there is a better way, but folks given to excess just don't want to take and guess what! We have a choice. We don't have to follow the culture, we can choose life, principle, love, forgiveness, less bitterness, hatred. It does cost though going against the grain. But you develop stronger character, deeper convictions. That was the appeal of Obama, he refused to get nasty, crass or mean - he kept holding up the standard even when he makes mistakes. There are others doing this everyday - I know some VERY strong good brothers and sisters, making it happen - not falling into the culture. But that is many times unglamorous and does not get a whole lotta air time.

-SBZ

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

I have met several people in about the last 5 years that have divorced after being married for 30+ years. According to all of them, the marriages died long before the divorce...but they wanted to wait until all of the kids were grown and out of the house before going their separate ways. I often wonder which is better when the relationship has deteriorated...staying together for the kids or separation from your spouse/SO. Neither situation seems ideal but we all have to do what we feel is best for our children and ourselves.

-LH

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader responds to LH:

Depends on tolerance level for suffering each party has and that weighed against the need to present a stable united front for the children... and how long that can realistically be maintained...

-SK

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Muata responds to LH:

Personally, I could not do it. In most cases I have been privy to like the ones you mentioned were a disaster for the kids.

-Muata

Yvette said...

If both parents are apart of the kids' lives in a huge way (full-time or close to it) then I don't think being married or un-married is an issue. But I do believe both parents have to be there. Now people having multiple kids with multiple people is very sloppy in my opinion. One child maybe a mistake but those dudes they showcased in that ESPN piece, I mean, "WTF?" This sloppiness isn't just going on w/celebrities. You hear about this all the time w/regular folks. -YW

As an adult, take responsibility for your actions. Why would someone have 10 kids with 10 different people? That's crazy! The other guy they featured that has stopped paying child support and doesn't visit his children? Unfortunately that's something that happens way too often. And men wonder why women are hurt and angry? When you don't man up and take care of your responsibilities. Both parents owe their children EVERYTHING they have to give (emotionally, spiritually, financially).

When mom has to raise the child and take care of everything to make sure the child is healthy & happy and Dad periodically pops by & hangs out a few hrs and splits. Or he doesn't come around at all and just sends a check. Or never around and doesn't send a check. I don't think that's being a father. These are the examples that children get and they may grow up thinking this is what father's do. Or have bitterness towards their father. Or messed up emotionally because the father was absent or hardly there. Fathers have an everlasting effect on sons and daughters. That's what people should think about before they have careless sex. Sex comes w/consequences. People need to stop being sloppy and selfish. Be there for your children and if you can't, stop having children!!

Much respect to the parents that are handling their business!!

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader response:

I think it takes two exceptionally mature people to live this way and not exhibit negative feelings toward one another. If they are that mature, they can probably do so apart from each other and parent in a healthy manner. Either way, the child is exposed to a less than ideal model of marriage/relationships. Is it better to have a single parent and no model for such a relationship, or married parents who play the roles you describe but show no marital love/affection for one another? IDK, but I believe these roles can be played without the parents living together.

-J