Friday, September 25, 2009

Shall We Torture or Not?

I am sitting back applauding the intelligence agencies for dismantling the most recent New York City/Colorado terrorism plot. It is refreshing to know that the intensified measures that were put in place as a result of September 11, 2001 and the Bush Administration’s tenacity (illegal and legal) to establish protective measures are working.

Suspect in terror probe admits ties to al Qaeda, official says ...

My only concern is that the Obama Administration may be diluting what has been effective. Of course, their position of violating human rights is a valid one. Human rights should be protected and honored. No beef from me on this. However, this ‘we will not torture under any circumstances’ got me to thinking.

Pretend with me:

One of these men (confessed al Qaeda members) who recently lied to the government about classified details is withholding information that can stop an imminent terrorist attack (there is evidence that this part is true). The plans for the attack are widespread and will kill thousands. Possibly some of your family members are in harms way. As the person in charge of obtaining factual info from these overzealous Islamic maniacs to stop the mass murder, do you sleep deprive them, water board, put insects in their cells, turn up the air condition, threaten to cut off their genitals, pull on their eyelids…Okay, you get it:

Would you torture these men to get the information?

President Obama and the White House have taken over interrogations of this caliber e.g. suspected terrorism. Basically, they have exerted their power to oversee indicating that they do not trust the men and women that they appointed i.e. Eric Holder. This in itself has me concerned because The White House is adamant about not torturing. Weak…

One thing about Bush and Cheney, when the American people asked for blood they went and got it. Not saying all their actions were right. I surely disagreed on the Iraq invasion that became an undercover occupation and oil control mission. But, I must say that I knew as a citizen of this country after the act of war in New York, the District of Columbia, and in the skies over Pennsylvania (this country deserves all the pay back it receives) that I did not have to worry about if the cowboys in office were going to display weakness.

If I were a terrorist I would not be too afraid to get caught. Although, that is not the objective. I would have some comfort in knowing that no one is going to burn me with a cigarette.

Written by Brian E. Payne.

12 comments:

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

What proof do we have that these people are the real terrorists? Do we believe so because the gov't says so? The same gov't that misleads the Amerikkan people on a regular basis? The most significant question we should be asking is why would someone want to hurt Amerikkans? Again, it goes back to how many peoples have Amerikkans destroyed in the name of democracy. To personalize it would place it as a momma and son thing, but I'm looking at this from a global perspective. Amerikka is an immoral country, and nothing is beneath this country, including setting up others to take the blame for their dirty deeds and killing its own citizens and blaming it on foreign "terrorists." A Higher Form of Killing outlines this well. Medical Apartheid also covers it in a general sense.

I'd, truthfully, rather pull the toenails of so-called Amerikkan leaders, corporate thugs, politricksters, etc. I dare say their dirt is more detrimental to us. But I can also say this, eventually Amerikka will one day, if not already, bully the wrong group of people and this country's people will suffer for it. While we're suffering, the so-called leaders will be off somewhere wiping their brows because THEY got out on time.

-NAY

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

In the short term I'd say that we cannot promote ourselves as the beacon of human rights and democracy then use torture tactics in the name of safety. The country has always been hypocritical in this manner. We are the only country to use nuclear weapons and we claimed it was for democracy. Notice we didn't drop it on Germany or Italy because they have something in common with us. They just so happened to have pale skin. Yes I said it. It's something you'd expect to hear from BP. I know there are other factors to consider like geography and other political reason but at the end of the day you really have to think another country is inferior to drop the Abomb. Secondly, Ghadafi called the UN Secrurity council a joke because he said there have been 65 wars since its formation. Most of these wars involved one of the members. But eh its Ghadafi so no one will listen.

Back to torture. I don't like it at all. I always say that all is fair in love and war but this clearly isn't a love affair. We need the information these guys have but at the same time many of them would rather die than tell you anything. Our govt has its secrets but there is always a leak. Thus we can't take the chance of being ratted out by some angry pentagon official that didn't get promoted. So I vote no torture. I think we can solve alot of problems if we change out diplomatic approach. It's kind of like when I spoke to my inlaws last week. In a sense the dumb as step father said to me that there is no way that I can know how to raise a child because I don't come from a good family. Not he didnt say this word for word and it wasnt his intention to insult me(after all he apologized before the insult lol) but its the same approach we take throughout the world. We antagonize the other leaders and wonder why they don't want to choose our way which clearly doesnt work in their eyes.

I think torture is as dumb as peopel dying because they beleive in Allah instead of God or they want socialism instead of communism. It shows that the human being is the world's most destructive and selfish animal even in the state of nature which we tend to try to operate outside of.

Obama isnt soft he is just too careful. But I agree with them on the no torture thing.

-LS

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Muata responds to NAY and LS:

Okay. No torture if your momma or child is in harms way? I get all that was typed by NAY and LS - but have we personalized this? Will you pull out a toe nail to get critical info to save momma and son? From your response at this point momma and son will be burnt toast...we have to make this personal because these men/women who are planning to kill may just be right around the corner from you. I include the white boy who mad at the US government in this too. Right around the corner...

-Muata

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

NAY responds:

In studying the history of war in the name of Amerikkan freedom, it is indisputably put forth that no other country has ever been the instigator of war or violence against this country. Amerikka is no more a victim than the highly paid CEOs and corporations currently receiving bailouts of our hard-earned money. Amerikka thrives off the premise of making the victim seem like the criminal and criminal seem like the victim. We see this every time Europeans blame Blacks for the majority of violent crimes, economic crimes, etc., yet disavow themselves of any responsibility.

Amerikka, with the support of other European countries which it isn't warring against at the time and others willing to sell-out their home countries, has always been the instigator when we follow the yellow brick road to the beginnings of a conflict. Amerikka also retains the greatest deadliest distinction and most twisted history of destroying its own people and then placing the blame on factions which it hopes to invade and control.

Please remember this as we ask that torture continue in the so-called al-qaeda (which means toilet bowl, btw) terrorist arrests. Why would "terrorists," hard-core terrorists from what we're told, name themselves "toilet bowl?" More made-up gibberish by seemingly harmless, yet dangerous murderers (i.e., Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Brezinski [sp]), meant to keep ignorant Amerikkans supportive of government evil.

Even King, as misled as he was early on, eventually came to the ominous conclusion that this government was (and still is) the greatest purveyor of violence in the world. AND they will and have killed innocent people to earn that infamous distinction.

BTW, ignorance is simply the state of not knowing. Stupidity is knowing, yet choosing to do, say or be anyway.

-NAY

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Muata responds to NAY:

NAY-
We have been communicating enough for you to know that what you are saying is my position too. But, you still have yet to answer the question. Is this what you are going to spout if your mother/kids are on a train with explosives and you can actually get the info to stop the bomb from going off? Come on now...What would you do?

-Muata

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

The pot calling the kettle black. The last group that REALLY fought terroist were the Panthers and the Muslims right here on American soil...............................

-PM

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

The truth is that actual torture rarely gets any tangible information from a suspect. Hell, torture me long enough I might be liable to say anything, but it doesn't mean it will be helpful to you. You probably would, too. It isn't the actual torture that usually gets answers, it's the idea of torture that usually proves more effective.

If I were to lose a family member through such unfortunate circumstances, I couldn't blame that on the lack of torture, but I could go back to my country's history and understand how the seeds were sown for this. Amerikka has created enemies, where enemies formerly did not exist. It is only fitting that in the end someone will strike back and someone will die.

So, if it was possible to get the information, accurate information, it would better come through someone who stood to gain monetarily or otherwise through the sharing of such information, not through torture.

What we have to realize is that right now, in somebody else's country, Amerikka is torturing US citizens with little-to-no proof of their guilt. Simply because they suspect them of something. They're having this done in other countries so that Amerikka's own laws regarding citizens can be disregarded. What kind of country does that? Who is the real terrorists?

In the end, torture guarantees nothing but torture. Amerikka weaves a tangled web of lies and truth and many times the guilty is not the guilty. So, again, do we trust them because they say it is so and if we allow it there'll be less chance of attacks or do we conduct our own investigations, while not ignoring historical precedents?

-NAY

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Muata responds to NAY:

Thanks. But, Lord Have Mercy. I am pulling teeth today. LOL. I will utilize every method to get the info. Some info. Again, we on the same page. I just select to do what I deemed necessary to save lives.

-Muata

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

NAY, your response was excellent and I agree with it wholeheartdly!! I want to also point out that not only are we listening to western media that identified these men as terrorists, but lets ask ourselves, what happens when the FBI/CIA gets a hold of some Africans who say "fuck america" or are in revolutionary organizations? will it be ok to tourtore them as well? the nation/people that the "government" is attempting to protect is not about you or me, it is not about your momma or your son. they are trying to protect Amerikka's role in the world economy/world market. they don't give a damn about your or your momma, if they did don't you think they would be trying to resolve why in most of the places where we live there is extreme proverty? the government only cares about making sure that their economic backers (multi-national) corporations are satisified and that they are fighting for their best interests. if the u.s. was really concerned about humanity and the preservation of human life would they have dropped a bomb in Somalia just last week, would they have gone to war in Iraq killing many civilians and most importantly, wouldn't they be using the money they are wasting in wary, to build up the economy in the U.S. and really create jobs so that there is not a double digit rate of unemployment in some states. be careful what you ask for, because as we are all aware, what is the real difference between Africans and Arabs? there is not much difference, in the eyes of the capitalists we are just obstacles!!

-MF

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Muata responds to MF:

I read your response from my 'non-agreement' with you lenses. I do agree, btw. Guess what my lenses revealed: This is a bunch of rhetoric that no one in control listens to. It is rhetoric that those oppressed do not even care about anymore. So, I ask: Why continue with this chatter if no one is listening? Blacks ain't even listening to what you just typed. Blacks have proven that they do not give a damn about empowerment and truth. All MOST blacks care about is what club ya goin' to later this evening. Who buying the malt liquor? Where is the weed? How can I get down with those rims? No one is listening, Mjiba. Isn't that obvious? By the way, what you, Nandi, and I continue to highlight has been highlighted by others before. Nothing much has changed...By all means, do not give up the fight - but there comes a time when we just have to move from our militancy to get small results. Ask President Obama about this. Guess what? He ain't getting any results. Heck, he begging them to do right. And, they STILL planning to kill him. I am prepared to die knowing that WE (blacks) are dropping the ball. Too bad because I did once have faith in us. No mo!

-Muata

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Responds to Muata:

Maybe I missed the point here. I thought this was about being for or against torture, not whether a lot of Black people were a bunch of sorry-ass cowards. ;-) Perhaps, you should start another discussion on this and allow us yet another opportunity to beat the hell out of a dead horse.

-NAY

Muata, The Shadow, The Black Rebel said...

Reader Response:

definitely something to think about...i am not sure where I stand on this one....

-TK