I am definitely not a Trump fan - but he is onto something that many of us haphazardly believe is true. We just too damn afraid to put some of the blame on Mr. Divine. Yes, I know we (humans) are responsible for America's current predicament e.g. economy in peril. Nonetheless, IF He is in control He did ALLOW this mess to occur which means He is partially directly/indirectly responsible for honest men and women not being able to feed their kids tonight. Yes, we can preface Freewill. Nonetheless, if God intervenes in the matters of men/women as a result of prayer, why can’t He provide some financial relief for the most needed? I am just saying...
Please follow an intellectually stimulating discussion by clicking on the Comment icon. But first, read the article that can be found after navigating to the URL below.
http://www.mediachannel.org/wordpress/2008/12/08/donald-trump-blames-crisis-on-divine-intervention/
Brian E. Payne
20 comments:
Reader DM responds:
I don't know about this one B. It so easy to blame God when things aren't going our way but if you believe in God (or a higher being), you must also believe that we were given all the tools to emulate that spirit or being and live in a way which is narrated/dictated/passed down (from the biblical sense) by that holy spirit. It is only when we try to step outside of those boundaries and do our own thing which innately we know does not reflect that word or spirit, that we find ourselves in trouble. It's simple; in other word, we have the ability to discern between right and wrong. Knowing this, if you believe in God (or a higher being), then you must also believe and know the difference between God's will and Man's will. When we choose the way of man over god, we find ourselves in trouble then we want to blame god. Man since the beginning, have fallen time and time again to the same pitfalls: Money, Power, and Sex. This has nothing to do with God's will. If you look around us an what's happening today, THE LOVE OF MONEY and Power has gotten us to where we are (collectively, not individually in some cases).
I don't blame god, I blame MAN!
-DM
Muata responds to DM:
DM-
I certainly agree that man is responsible for his demise. However, the God we believe in has failed so many. If one disputes that, my question: Has God answered the prayers you really needed answered the 0Amost? The ones that were not for material items or to appease your fleshly desires? I am talking about genuine much needed prayers? We all ways toss-up a non-answered prayer with: 'it was not the Lord's will.' When in fact we have no clue what God wants. You mention discernment - but who really knows when God is speaking? What we do is make-up our beliefs that are supported my non-reality. We must. We have to have a reason to believe. We have to have support. Support from a Being we can not prove is real. We work in faith. That's fine with me as long as we 'keep it real'. And this realness to me can be attached to atrocities committed by man - but sanctioned and allowed by a God we want to believe is working on our behalf. There is a person starving in Asia, calling on their God, and He has not arrived. We need to really discuss where God be at. Where is He? America, the World needs Him. Oh, He created the planets and then said, 'kill yourself.' Where is the ongoing guidance? Love? Grace? Where is the intervention when a child is sexually molested and then killed by a lunatic? Is this God's plan?
-Muata
Reader LS responds:
HEHE He got the whole world, in his hands, he got the whole world in his hands, he got me and you, in hands, he got the whole world in his hands.
He loves us man. But that being said what fun would it be to always make us all be ok all of the time. Suffering and struggle builds character and tests faith and since he must have an ego(why else would he make us go through so much to get to him) he measures us on how we react. Clearly capitalism is not God's way but why would he step in and show us the right way? It does sadden me that there are people in the world that don't have basic needs met like shelter, food and water. But is it God's issue or is it a human issue? I would error on the side of the latter because I think human greed and man's self interest is always in the way of the universal good. It's our struggle as a human race. We have gotten better but have "miles to go before we sleep"
-LS
Reader EJ responds to DM:
DM...one question. Why are we not suppose to act like men and think like men? WE ARE MEN. Why are we suppose to act like a spirit and think like a spirit when WE ARE NOT A SPIRIT...or ghost...(Holy Ghost)
-EJ
Reader DM responds to Muata again:
The problem with this theory that God has not answered so many of our prayers is again, MAN chooses to be selective on when and how to believe in GOD. For instance, we pray for selfish reasons when we need or want something but don't strive to live in the manner in which the same GOD we are supposedly praying too would like us to. I'm not telling you to believe in GOD but what I am saying is we (MAN) can't have it both ways. Whether you understand it or not, if you are going to believe in him then don't half ass it. If you are believing
in a non tangible spirit (as EJ pointed out), then you must also believe in the word (the only one we have as source of guidelines so to speak, even if written by man) that we have as our resources, live the word, believe the word and have faith. Then, maybe then, some of these prayers can be taken seriously. Again, not preaching, just saying.
-DM
Reader EJ responds to LS:
LS...one question? When did faith become measurable? The bible said either you have it or you don't. What's the need to test how much of it you have? God plays a lot of games huh
-EJ
Reader LS responds to EJ:
God didn't write the bible. I think measure might be the wrong word but struggle is a test of faith. Else what would be the point? My grandma said "God is a jealous God"
I never used to get it. But it makes sense now.
I am out of my element when it comes to bible scriptures and such because I never really trusted the people at the church so I didn't eat from the plate. I just came because I had to go and now I haven't found my place. Though the bible and the building are separate, I just can't seem to make myself read the bible or attend service. Odd but it's real talk.
-LS
Reader DM responds to EJ:
You bring up a valid point but you missed one of my points. I said "IF YOU BELIEVE IN GOD (OR A HIGHER SPIRIT). Now if you don't believe in either, you're right, why try to emulate a spirit or higher power but at the same token, you can't NOT believe in it at one point, then BLAME it on another.
-DM
Reader EJ responds to DM:
I agree with you, DM, up to a point. I believe in God...but I understand man. When it comes to the "word"...my believe is that man took over at that point.....and we are fallible. I believe in God and what's in me....It's natural. Even the hardest of souls knows the difference between right and wrong....to me God gave us that....everything else is about control. (religion)
-EJ
Reader DM responds to EJ:
And I believe in what you just said to some degree too. Man (not all) has taken people's beliefs and manipulated it so that his flock is controlled to a degree. Spiritual beliefs have been manipulated for years (if not centuries) by men to justify wars and increasing wealth for the manipulators. Your right, our innate sense of what's right and wrong is God like. Just as we should learn to trust our god given instincts and sense of right and wrong, we should also learn to trust in god and not man if it is god that we believe in. So many people get caught up in the size of the church, the pastor's car or house, the first lady's cloths etc, That has nothing to do with God. Frankly, I can see how some people can look at religion as the biggest scam and joke when you look around at some of the examples. But again, that's where we need to take it back to the basics, The Word, not clothes, cars, homes etc. Anyway, This one is 1 for the road for me. Headed to HP in 15 minutes. Thanks for the SPIRITED conversation.
-DM
Reader Rev. JA responds:
I agree with both DM and EJ. God is a free-will God. He allows us to follow our will or His will. When we choose the first, we must deal with the consequences and seek His mercy upon those impacted by the selfish and greedy acts of the world - of man. Donald Trump is the epitomy of "Selfish and All about Me". Smile. But I enjoy the conversation and stimulation to share thoughts.
GOD is not to blame - disobedience, greed and lack of compassion is the blame. If God did "punish" us as was done before Jesus - we would all be dead. Thank GOD for Jesus and the onset of much grace & mercy on a daily basis. I certainly appreciate it.
Peace, love & blessings!
-Rev. JM
Reader Rev. JM responds again:
To Muata and all on this e-mail, if you have some free reading time over the holiday, read the book called "The Shack".
God's word never promised a life free of hurt, pain, tragedy and loss. What He promised was a redeeming Savior who could and does wipe our tears and heal our hurts. Our perect, sinfree and no-pain life starts when we depart this earthly place. So in the interim, stop looking for perfection on earth and focus on peace, compassion, forgiveness and strength for the journey.
And YES! God has answered EVERY SINGLE PRAYER I have uttered. Not all in the manner I wanted but in the manner of wht was best for me and my personal journey or for the person I prayed for.
Last statement -
IF YOU ARE CALLED TO BE A LEADER, PARENT, TEACHER or PERSON WHO IMPACTS PEOPLE's lives daily, take your responsibility
serious and with full accountability. One incorrect action or decision could negatively impact 10s, 100s or 1000s of people's lives.
Peace, love & blessings!
-JM
Reader PM responds:
If you are a believer of the MAN.......................... You may get a better understanding of God's will through a simple "google search"..............boy this is funny!
-PM
Muata responds to PM:
I don't get it. What is the joke?
"God's Will"
For us who claim to know His will are full of conjecture. We really don't know the Will of God. Claiming so makes Him like us. And, this is what we have done by claiming we heard 'God speak' or us believing that 'God has lead us to do this or that'.
How about knowing what is right and what is wrong? I don't need God to share this with me. Why can't we just live and do right? What is right in the confines of the natural order. Do we really have to revert to, 'this is God's will?' It is confusing and unnecessary. So confusing people have killed each other over 'God's Will' for centuries. So destructive that there are women in villages of Africa who believe it is 'God's Will' for their husbands to infect them with HIV. This God's Will stuff is a part of the defeating quality religion has interjected into society.
There are plenty of people who are sitting in jail now because they thought God wanted them to do something. They actually believe God guided them.
Would it be God's will if my son is killed by a unremorseful fool, and then I in turn kill the fool? Before you say 'NO' refer to the bible and note where God dished-out retribution and allowed others to do it on His behalf. If we really want to take the road that we understand God's Will PLEASE do not leave out His actions that should be called into question e.g. genocide, sanctioned murder, misogyny, an d intolerance.
"Test"
Anyone can say and believe that God is testing them? You know when people do this: when they are undergoing a hard time. Why not attach this same testing when one is doing good?
We know so much pertaining to God - but we cannot even recognize that we have devalued Him. Brought Him into our pathetic ways claiming He is the reason for this and that. Mind you, it is always the good we ATTACH to the Lord.
-Muata
Reader EJ responds:
my life is a lot less complicated spiritually and mentally when I accepted the fact that I am my successes and failures. I understand that what I believe tries not to provide explanations for what can't be explained. I don't have to make sense of a child being raped and buried alive....a child being thrown out of a car on a busy highway at 90 miles per hr in FL...a child in GA murdered while sitting in her room on the computer by a stray bullet...I could go on and on. If there was a devil...he came from God. Am I right Christians? Im out.
-EJ
Muata responds again:
I really wanted to be done with this conversation - but it is too good for me to sit on a thought or something that I have learned. And, I am hoping EJ, TM, Rev. JM, LS, and I are not annoying you. If I know those CC'ed like I think I do you are reading and not deleting. And, if you are tired
of this discussion and feel like you cannot gain anything from it please email me with: take me off this email discussion.
Perhaps, the Satan (the ejected angel from heaven who God supposedly defeated) has more power than we think. Consider that since the innocent are not protected by the evil that men/women do. The news events that Eric mentioned are real, and no one in my circle (including preachers, divinity students, etc.) can explain why God is absent when kids are attacked by adults. Perhaps, these grown folk are devils?
With all the evil that occur in this world, it appears to be more evil than good, who is really in control: man, God, or Satan? My answer: Man and Satan. If God was really in control, why can't He just redirect a stray bullet so that it will not hit a newborn?
And, why does he use His control and ability to answer prayers for some and not all? According to Rev. Jennifer he has answered all of hers. Just by Him answering a prayer means He is active in the lives of the person praying which means He in effect is altering/changing outcomes. Right?
My prayer:
I pray Lord that no child is brutally harmed this week by an adult.
You know and I know that prayer will not be answered if we figure in the number of kids that were brutally harmed last week and the week before.
Again, I ask:
Where you be at, God? Show yourself for ALL to20see. Stop allowing the angel you biblically defeated to win. Show yourself! Satan will this morning, just turn on your tv, Lord.
-Muata
Reader JA responds to Muata:
Prayer without faith means to pray in vain. The challenge is not - "let me see how much I can catch God at not fulfilling His job" - BUT- more so "Let me see what I can do to exercise faith and KNOW that no matter what is happening - God is in control and will bring balance.
Let's not forget that GOD IS A FREE-WILL GOD. He doesn't MAKE us do anything our will won't allow or open up to. Smile. THe bottom line is -
it is about a RELATIONSHIP with the individual, God and Son & Holy SPirit.
NO TWO are the same or alike. He's big enough to do that. We humans are the ones to compartmentalize, seperate, organize and place in a certain order. God is already in order - HE IS THE ORDER.
Smile.
Peace, love & blessings!
-JA
Reader JA responds to Muata again:
We attach GOOD to God because He IS all GOOD! No one can convince an individual. You simply have to believe this on your own. I can testify, but the belief and faith is on You. Smile.
The humor to me is that we keep talking about God but not realizing that it is MAN that puts God in these roles and places and levels of truth & consequence. MAN does it - not the Word of God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit. MAN does it to MAN. But again, it is a journey and each one of us has to take it alone. Loving and giving along the way but facing judgement alone.
The references you give in the word are BEFORE CHRIST and God was clear that an action brings consequence without mercy & grace. AFTER CHRIST - our redeemer - there was much MERCY, GRACE, LOVE & COMPASSION flowing. Many suffered but not as in old.
Keep writing Muata. Keep writing - I appreciate the constant confirmations that flow through my spirit from these conversations.
Peace!
-Rev. JA
Reader EJ responds to Muata:
Muata you said what I wanted to say. We have people who actually think they have heard the voice of God. Go figure.
If God answers your prayers....that would mean you have the power to change his will...because according to Christians....his will and your life is already predetermined. He already knows what's going to happen...why would he then turn around and test you or even listen to your plea?
For example....if you have your pastor ask God to heal your dying mother, and he "according to those who feel he answers prayers"..answered your prayers, that would mean you have the ability to influence God...assuming it was her time to go. Using this same example, if you ask God to heal her and she dies....did he answer your prayer?
What about this thought? On the seventh day he rested.....and he is still resting. Whatever you do or whatever happens in this life is just that, LIFE. Or call it your gift from God. He gave us the process of procreation and everything we need to survive....no need in looking to the sky for some help....all that's good and all that's bad is what he intended. Deal with the fact that without death there cannot be life. God knew what he was doing when he did it.
YOU ARE ON YOUR ON!!!!! Scary huh?
-EJ
happy nappy holidays folk
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